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	<title>Comments on: Question of the Week: Is there a fundamental difference in the skills required to build visibly moving robots versus autonomous embedded control subsystems?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/</link>
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		<title>By: R.S. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-799</link>
		<dc:creator>R.S. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-799</guid>
		<description>Certainly most, if not all, motion control is hard-real time, not to mention fault-tolerant if not fault proof. If I have a bench instrument giving me temperature and humidity readings and the watchdog timer reboots it and I lose 3 seconds worth of data, it is not (usually) tragic. Yet it, too, is an embedded system. But if I&#039;m riding along on my Segway scooter, and the wheels go from 10mph to zero in 10ms, I won&#039;t be a happy camper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly most, if not all, motion control is hard-real time, not to mention fault-tolerant if not fault proof. If I have a bench instrument giving me temperature and humidity readings and the watchdog timer reboots it and I lose 3 seconds worth of data, it is not (usually) tragic. Yet it, too, is an embedded system. But if I&#8217;m riding along on my Segway scooter, and the wheels go from 10mph to zero in 10ms, I won&#8217;t be a happy camper.</p>
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		<title>By: J.C.. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-798</link>
		<dc:creator>J.C.. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jun 2010 15:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-798</guid>
		<description>&quot;Isn’t Newton amazing? Why has the controller have to know about Newton?&quot;

Because the motion imparted to a given joint depends on what&#039;s going on in the other joints. Every motion of any joint imparts reaction forces and torques on all the others. If you want the system to follow a smooth trajectory from one state to another, you have to anticipate and counter those reactions.

In the world of rigid body motion, we call these reactions &quot;cross-coupling&quot; between axes. An industrial robot is a collection of (hopefully) rigid bodies, all connected together in complicated ways, so the cross couplings are very much more profound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Isn’t Newton amazing? Why has the controller have to know about Newton?&#8221;</p>
<p>Because the motion imparted to a given joint depends on what&#8217;s going on in the other joints. Every motion of any joint imparts reaction forces and torques on all the others. If you want the system to follow a smooth trajectory from one state to another, you have to anticipate and counter those reactions.</p>
<p>In the world of rigid body motion, we call these reactions &#8220;cross-coupling&#8221; between axes. An industrial robot is a collection of (hopefully) rigid bodies, all connected together in complicated ways, so the cross couplings are very much more profound.</p>
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		<title>By: S.K. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-797</link>
		<dc:creator>S.K. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-797</guid>
		<description>I think fundamentally embedded thinking just embedded system design as considered these days is just a process of integrating all the ancillaries...Be it be at small scale level or large scale level... which accounts to of part of the latter half of the discussion question...
but as for robots i think much more info is needed in terms of motion and its dynamics.....dynamics of robotics and control systems..which is much more academic and needs expertise...
I am not playing anyone&#039;s side just my point of view</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think fundamentally embedded thinking just embedded system design as considered these days is just a process of integrating all the ancillaries&#8230;Be it be at small scale level or large scale level&#8230; which accounts to of part of the latter half of the discussion question&#8230;<br />
but as for robots i think much more info is needed in terms of motion and its dynamics&#8230;..dynamics of robotics and control systems..which is much more academic and needs expertise&#8230;<br />
I am not playing anyone&#8217;s side just my point of view</p>
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		<title>By: A.K. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-796</link>
		<dc:creator>A.K. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-796</guid>
		<description>Isn’t Newton amazing? Why has the controller have to know about Newton?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn’t Newton amazing? Why has the controller have to know about Newton?</p>
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		<title>By: J.C. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-795</link>
		<dc:creator>J.C. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-795</guid>
		<description>&quot;Basically a robot could be an array of embedded subsystems (size of 1 to n). The only difference may be in a complex robot if it has a “brain” controlling the array of the subsystems. &quot;

I don&#039;t think it works that way, A.. Physically, the various parts of a robot can&#039;t be treated in isolation. Newton&#039;s laws dictate that for every force and torque on one body, there&#039;s an equal and opposite force on the other. A controller has to take into account those reaction forces.

I think it&#039;s probably possible to build a robot that doesn&#039;t have (much) crosstalk between channels. You could have, for example, an x-y-z table, so the various degrees of freedom are all independent. You could make it a point to move along only one axis at a time.

You _COULD_ do that, but you won&#039;t sell any of the robots. The customers want smooth motions from place to place, all axes working together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Basically a robot could be an array of embedded subsystems (size of 1 to n). The only difference may be in a complex robot if it has a “brain” controlling the array of the subsystems. &#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it works that way, A.. Physically, the various parts of a robot can&#8217;t be treated in isolation. Newton&#8217;s laws dictate that for every force and torque on one body, there&#8217;s an equal and opposite force on the other. A controller has to take into account those reaction forces.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s probably possible to build a robot that doesn&#8217;t have (much) crosstalk between channels. You could have, for example, an x-y-z table, so the various degrees of freedom are all independent. You could make it a point to move along only one axis at a time.</p>
<p>You _COULD_ do that, but you won&#8217;t sell any of the robots. The customers want smooth motions from place to place, all axes working together.</p>
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		<title>By: A.K. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-794</link>
		<dc:creator>A.K. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-794</guid>
		<description>Basically a robot could be an array of embedded subsystems (size of 1 to n). The only difference may be in a complex robot if it has a “brain” controlling the array of the subsystems. So the skill needed for this “brain” would be in the realm of mathematicians developing algorithms to manage the robot’s activity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Basically a robot could be an array of embedded subsystems (size of 1 to n). The only difference may be in a complex robot if it has a “brain” controlling the array of the subsystems. So the skill needed for this “brain” would be in the realm of mathematicians developing algorithms to manage the robot’s activity.</p>
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		<title>By: A.P. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-793</link>
		<dc:creator>A.P. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 00:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-793</guid>
		<description>The answer is a definite and unambiguous maybe.

I&#039;m only being a little facetious here; industrial robots and UAV&#039;s are a subset of embedded systems. In terms of actual embedded skills, I don&#039;t think there is a lot of difference (and I have done both visibly moving robotic systems and &quot;other&quot; control systems).

But there is a whole level of anciliary skills which are needed for either system and they may vary quite a bit. As Jack said, if you have an industrial robot, you have moving masses and you really need to understand the physics of that motion. in an HVAC system, on the other hand, you don&#039;t have much in moving parts (compressor and maybe some actuators) but you better understand the heat cycle you&#039;re working with.

In short, the fundamental differences aren&#039;t within the embedded side but rather with the hardware you are working with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The answer is a definite and unambiguous maybe.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m only being a little facetious here; industrial robots and UAV&#8217;s are a subset of embedded systems. In terms of actual embedded skills, I don&#8217;t think there is a lot of difference (and I have done both visibly moving robotic systems and &#8220;other&#8221; control systems).</p>
<p>But there is a whole level of anciliary skills which are needed for either system and they may vary quite a bit. As Jack said, if you have an industrial robot, you have moving masses and you really need to understand the physics of that motion. in an HVAC system, on the other hand, you don&#8217;t have much in moving parts (compressor and maybe some actuators) but you better understand the heat cycle you&#8217;re working with.</p>
<p>In short, the fundamental differences aren&#8217;t within the embedded side but rather with the hardware you are working with.</p>
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		<title>By: J.C. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-792</link>
		<dc:creator>J.C. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 06:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-792</guid>
		<description>I think the key thing is, a robot (I&#039;m talking about a true industrial robot) is a system of motors, joints, and masses. So I think one should at least understand the dynamics of physical bodies.

It&#039;s also a controls issue, so one needs to be pretty thoroughly steeped in the concepts of modern control theory, stability, and all that.

Finally, as Scott suggests, this is a &quot;hard real-time&quot; problem. Things absolutely _MUST_ be done at a fixed rate, with low jitter.

Now, as for &quot;other-than-robot&quot; applications like differential braking on a car: The problem is much the same, except that the car is much harder and has more variables to control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the key thing is, a robot (I&#8217;m talking about a true industrial robot) is a system of motors, joints, and masses. So I think one should at least understand the dynamics of physical bodies.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also a controls issue, so one needs to be pretty thoroughly steeped in the concepts of modern control theory, stability, and all that.</p>
<p>Finally, as Scott suggests, this is a &#8220;hard real-time&#8221; problem. Things absolutely _MUST_ be done at a fixed rate, with low jitter.</p>
<p>Now, as for &#8220;other-than-robot&#8221; applications like differential braking on a car: The problem is much the same, except that the car is much harder and has more variables to control.</p>
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		<title>By: K.M. @LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-791</link>
		<dc:creator>K.M. @LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 May 2010 07:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-791</guid>
		<description>Hi,
Embedded Systems in general are designed to accomplish a dedicated task/s which require certain i/p&#039;s to process and then give the o/p. Likewise even Robots can be thought as a system to accomplish certain tasks which act on i/p&#039;s or AI ,process them and give o/p(Mostly Motion). So I think a good knowledge of motion control + embedded system would be the skillset for developing robotic systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
Embedded Systems in general are designed to accomplish a dedicated task/s which require certain i/p&#8217;s to process and then give the o/p. Likewise even Robots can be thought as a system to accomplish certain tasks which act on i/p&#8217;s or AI ,process them and give o/p(Mostly Motion). So I think a good knowledge of motion control + embedded system would be the skillset for developing robotic systems.</p>
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		<title>By: E.W. @EM</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-790</link>
		<dc:creator>E.W. @EM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 20:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://robert.blogs.embeddedinsights.com/2010/05/05/question-of-the-week-is-there-a-fundamental-difference-in-the-skills-required-to-build-visibly-moving-robots-versus-autonomous-embedded-control-subsystems/#comment-790</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I also hire engineers to work on robots. I&#039;ve seen a lot of 4 year degree engineers come out of school with robotic training under their belt who don&#039;t want to pay attention to details in extremely complex embedded systems. I agree with Jim in that I need intelligent, energetic engineers who are passonate about robots, not robotic engineers.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also hire engineers to work on robots. I&#8217;ve seen a lot of 4 year degree engineers come out of school with robotic training under their belt who don&#8217;t want to pay attention to details in extremely complex embedded systems. I agree with Jim in that I need intelligent, energetic engineers who are passonate about robots, not robotic engineers.</p>
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