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	<title>Comments on: Is College necessary for embedded developers?</title>
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	<description>Shedding Light on the Hidden World of Embedded Systems</description>
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		<title>By: L.S. @ TI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12780</link>
		<dc:creator>L.S. @ TI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12780</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s an interesting question. Many of the University Programmes that we&#039;ve been working with are transitioning the curriculum to more &quot;project based learning&quot; which focuses less on theory and more on the application. It&#039;s true that many of the best engineers often times did not have formal ECE training, but often times the most effective Engineers are those who can root the theory and apply them to experience (e.g. now that I&#039;m trying to push the preformance on this processor I need to better understand the underlying algorithm... THANK you all those years of Calculus :-) ).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting question. Many of the University Programmes that we&#8217;ve been working with are transitioning the curriculum to more &#8220;project based learning&#8221; which focuses less on theory and more on the application. It&#8217;s true that many of the best engineers often times did not have formal ECE training, but often times the most effective Engineers are those who can root the theory and apply them to experience (e.g. now that I&#8217;m trying to push the preformance on this processor I need to better understand the underlying algorithm&#8230; THANK you all those years of Calculus <img src='http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  ).</p>
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		<title>By: L.M. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12659</link>
		<dc:creator>L.M. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12659</guid>
		<description>@Rufus - I once worked for a company that test-hired undergraduates from the local U, and encouraged the good ones to drop out for &quot;big bucks.&quot; Once the kids did that, they were locked in to that company. I thought it was unscrupulous, they thought it was good business.
I&#039;m glad you got hired someplace.
I replied above that a degree is not that important to me when I am looking at resumes. But I would never encourage a young person to enter the field with anything less than a BS, unless they had some kind of extenuating circumstance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rufus &#8211; I once worked for a company that test-hired undergraduates from the local U, and encouraged the good ones to drop out for &#8220;big bucks.&#8221; Once the kids did that, they were locked in to that company. I thought it was unscrupulous, they thought it was good business.<br />
I&#8217;m glad you got hired someplace.<br />
I replied above that a degree is not that important to me when I am looking at resumes. But I would never encourage a young person to enter the field with anything less than a BS, unless they had some kind of extenuating circumstance.</p>
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		<title>By: D.O. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12477</link>
		<dc:creator>D.O. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12477</guid>
		<description>Not quite sure what terminology applies here, but after the usual compulsory 9 years (Sweden), I spent 3 years in upper secondary technical school, and about three semesters studying university embedded systems, electronics, control engineering etc - then dropped that for military service and started working in the industry instead. Spent a little more than 12 years working, but have now moved on to game development and various contract work.

However, I started programming at the age of ten, and spent years coding assembly language on the Commodore Amiga (that is, mostly programming to-the-metal), including OOP, user interfaces and whatnot - so I was essentially self taught before I even touched programming within the educational system.

I wouldn&#039;t really recommend this route, especially not these days, as programming now usually means desktop environments with access only to very high level APIs. Even game engines (some of the most advanced programming done these days) and audio processing is rather high level stuff now. You&#039;d have to hack Linux kernel drivers or similar to get anywhere near I/O ports, hardware interrupts, DMA etc.

Also, &quot;realtime&quot; (as in, guaranteed response times) is a concept that isn&#039;t even really applicable to normal desktop operating systems, as they generally don&#039;t provide the OS kernel features required to properly support such applications. Professional musical applications is one field you might want to look to for hints as to &quot;abusing&quot; such platforms for realtime applications - but it&#039;s still a very different environment.

TL;DR: Basically, if you&#039;re not already doing control engineering, DSP and similar on embedded systems and know exactly what you&#039;re doing - get the proper education! This is not something you pick up over a few weekends after getting a new job.

Oh, and the salary part: You&#039;ll have to make quite an impression to have any chance of getting paid properly without formal education, I suspect. (Writing a small RTOS + demo app on location did the trick in my case.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not quite sure what terminology applies here, but after the usual compulsory 9 years (Sweden), I spent 3 years in upper secondary technical school, and about three semesters studying university embedded systems, electronics, control engineering etc &#8211; then dropped that for military service and started working in the industry instead. Spent a little more than 12 years working, but have now moved on to game development and various contract work.</p>
<p>However, I started programming at the age of ten, and spent years coding assembly language on the Commodore Amiga (that is, mostly programming to-the-metal), including OOP, user interfaces and whatnot &#8211; so I was essentially self taught before I even touched programming within the educational system.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t really recommend this route, especially not these days, as programming now usually means desktop environments with access only to very high level APIs. Even game engines (some of the most advanced programming done these days) and audio processing is rather high level stuff now. You&#8217;d have to hack Linux kernel drivers or similar to get anywhere near I/O ports, hardware interrupts, DMA etc.</p>
<p>Also, &#8220;realtime&#8221; (as in, guaranteed response times) is a concept that isn&#8217;t even really applicable to normal desktop operating systems, as they generally don&#8217;t provide the OS kernel features required to properly support such applications. Professional musical applications is one field you might want to look to for hints as to &#8220;abusing&#8221; such platforms for realtime applications &#8211; but it&#8217;s still a very different environment.</p>
<p>TL;DR: Basically, if you&#8217;re not already doing control engineering, DSP and similar on embedded systems and know exactly what you&#8217;re doing &#8211; get the proper education! This is not something you pick up over a few weekends after getting a new job.</p>
<p>Oh, and the salary part: You&#8217;ll have to make quite an impression to have any chance of getting paid properly without formal education, I suspect. (Writing a small RTOS + demo app on location did the trick in my case.)</p>
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		<title>By: J.F. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12476</link>
		<dc:creator>J.F. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12476</guid>
		<description>I have worked with several very capable software engineers who did not go to college and do not have degrees. For me (and my degree is over 40 years old) college did not teach me what I needed to know to do my work, but it taught me how to attack the problem, how to think in a logical manner. 

What a college degree will do is open many doors that are otherwise closed.

As for the High School diploma issue: I think everyone needs a high school education. Not everyone and not every career needs a college diploma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have worked with several very capable software engineers who did not go to college and do not have degrees. For me (and my degree is over 40 years old) college did not teach me what I needed to know to do my work, but it taught me how to attack the problem, how to think in a logical manner. </p>
<p>What a college degree will do is open many doors that are otherwise closed.</p>
<p>As for the High School diploma issue: I think everyone needs a high school education. Not everyone and not every career needs a college diploma.</p>
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		<title>By: D. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12475</link>
		<dc:creator>D. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12475</guid>
		<description>This is one of those silly troll type questions. You can argue and argue and argue and argue it until the cows come home without making any real progress.

The real question is how does a manager realize you won&#039;t be able to solve the problem he wants to have solved?

Some organizations manage the associate risks by establishing &quot;skill standards&quot; HR can prefilter based on those &quot;standards&quot;. Will qualified candidates get filtered out, count on it. Will unqualified candidates passes the filter, count on it. Titles often are amongst the filtering criteria. In theory I guess this means that they have learned the &quot;best practices&quot;. in practice it means you know how to learn the &quot;best practices&quot;. Definitely no small accomplishment. 

That having been stated, the question always becomes one of potential to learn the material vs. proficiency at using the material. Which one is actually needed in the situation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one of those silly troll type questions. You can argue and argue and argue and argue it until the cows come home without making any real progress.</p>
<p>The real question is how does a manager realize you won&#8217;t be able to solve the problem he wants to have solved?</p>
<p>Some organizations manage the associate risks by establishing &#8220;skill standards&#8221; HR can prefilter based on those &#8220;standards&#8221;. Will qualified candidates get filtered out, count on it. Will unqualified candidates passes the filter, count on it. Titles often are amongst the filtering criteria. In theory I guess this means that they have learned the &#8220;best practices&#8221;. in practice it means you know how to learn the &#8220;best practices&#8221;. Definitely no small accomplishment. </p>
<p>That having been stated, the question always becomes one of potential to learn the material vs. proficiency at using the material. Which one is actually needed in the situation?</p>
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		<title>By: N. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12474</link>
		<dc:creator>N. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12474</guid>
		<description>It is about the QoE ( Quality of education ) that matters, i have lot of interns who complain about the college education as they enforce them to only score and not allow them to learn ,

I look forward to a drastic change in the curriculum and the way of teaching at colleges</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is about the QoE ( Quality of education ) that matters, i have lot of interns who complain about the college education as they enforce them to only score and not allow them to learn ,</p>
<p>I look forward to a drastic change in the curriculum and the way of teaching at colleges</p>
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		<title>By: D'hamer</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12327</link>
		<dc:creator>D'hamer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12327</guid>
		<description>College was important for me. And as an embedded systems s/w engineer, here are the courses I found useful in the field:

microprocessors and microcontrollers
computer architecture
DSP
Networks and OSI layers
introduction to C
advanced C
data structures
OOP
operating systems

Students might not take these courses or these courses might not be taught as well as they should be.
Reason for students not taking it is because some or most of them might not have a clear idea of what embedded systems really is and what kind of work goes into it.
Analog circuit design or higher level application development students will know by their 2nd year in college.
Not for embedded systems. Engineering schools should have more career oriented expo, I don&#039;t mean job fairs, but rather provide 2nd year or 3rd year students with a list of job titles which can be obtained by a EE graduate, or a Comp Engineer graduate. And each title should be explained in detail with relationship to the nature of the job, skill sets required. I believe that is the best way to come close to the outside world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>College was important for me. And as an embedded systems s/w engineer, here are the courses I found useful in the field:</p>
<p>microprocessors and microcontrollers<br />
computer architecture<br />
DSP<br />
Networks and OSI layers<br />
introduction to C<br />
advanced C<br />
data structures<br />
OOP<br />
operating systems</p>
<p>Students might not take these courses or these courses might not be taught as well as they should be.<br />
Reason for students not taking it is because some or most of them might not have a clear idea of what embedded systems really is and what kind of work goes into it.<br />
Analog circuit design or higher level application development students will know by their 2nd year in college.<br />
Not for embedded systems. Engineering schools should have more career oriented expo, I don&#8217;t mean job fairs, but rather provide 2nd year or 3rd year students with a list of job titles which can be obtained by a EE graduate, or a Comp Engineer graduate. And each title should be explained in detail with relationship to the nature of the job, skill sets required. I believe that is the best way to come close to the outside world.</p>
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		<title>By: L. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12271</link>
		<dc:creator>L. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12271</guid>
		<description>There are special people who can do the job without any college. One of the best developers who ever worked for me had a 2-year electronics degree. And one of my better bosses had a Forestry degree. But those folks are rare. 
It&#039;s easy to say that college didn&#039;t teach you to do your job - that&#039;s the flip side of college kids asking &quot;how will learning X make me a better Y?&quot; But most people learn stuff in college, and fairly few people pick stuff up on their own.
It&#039;s pretty common to find people with degrees and experience who can&#039;t do much except drive a debugger, and who don&#039;t think they should be expected to do anything else. The real trick is to find people who are both talented and motivated. If they got there without traditional college experience, so what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are special people who can do the job without any college. One of the best developers who ever worked for me had a 2-year electronics degree. And one of my better bosses had a Forestry degree. But those folks are rare.<br />
It&#8217;s easy to say that college didn&#8217;t teach you to do your job &#8211; that&#8217;s the flip side of college kids asking &#8220;how will learning X make me a better Y?&#8221; But most people learn stuff in college, and fairly few people pick stuff up on their own.<br />
It&#8217;s pretty common to find people with degrees and experience who can&#8217;t do much except drive a debugger, and who don&#8217;t think they should be expected to do anything else. The real trick is to find people who are both talented and motivated. If they got there without traditional college experience, so what?</p>
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		<title>By: P. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12270</link>
		<dc:creator>P. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:03:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12270</guid>
		<description>Embedded engineering covers a lot of topics, but I think these cover the fundamentals that do not get taught easily outside of school:
math (up to complex numbers), computer architecture, algorithms (this is where the big O notations comes in).

Yes, you can &#039;get by&#039; without knowing these concepts, but you it&#039;ll be hard for you to do the more theoretical design work, and it&#039;ll take you longer to realize that certain problems belongs in different categories.

Depending on the specialization, it&#039;d be nice to pick up topics such as signal processing(and its branch of topics such as control theory, DSP), statistics, AI, network protocol design, number theory (for encryption), computer languages, OS design, compiler design, etc. Of course, the more breadth, the better, so at least you know where to look for solutions when you hit them.

True, not a lot of college programs target embedded systems so if one is truly interested, he/she would need to put together their own program tailored toward embedded engineering. It may not get you to a point where you can go out and design embedded systems, but it&#039;ll provide you with the fundamentals where you can pick up the rest such as program management (project management is mostly different implementation of the theoretical statistic models) easier.

I agree that college do not provide the graduate with the skills that they can immediately use when they get out in the job, but I don&#039;t think that college should focus solely on those skills. Just like an Electrical engineer is not expected to be able to fix TVs when they get their degree, but they should be able to explain the major technological theories in the design of the TV.

Teaching theories and getting the students to understand it where they can apply it is where college should put their focus on. The actual skills needed on the job should be learned on the job, and in self-learning outside of school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Embedded engineering covers a lot of topics, but I think these cover the fundamentals that do not get taught easily outside of school:<br />
math (up to complex numbers), computer architecture, algorithms (this is where the big O notations comes in).</p>
<p>Yes, you can &#8216;get by&#8217; without knowing these concepts, but you it&#8217;ll be hard for you to do the more theoretical design work, and it&#8217;ll take you longer to realize that certain problems belongs in different categories.</p>
<p>Depending on the specialization, it&#8217;d be nice to pick up topics such as signal processing(and its branch of topics such as control theory, DSP), statistics, AI, network protocol design, number theory (for encryption), computer languages, OS design, compiler design, etc. Of course, the more breadth, the better, so at least you know where to look for solutions when you hit them.</p>
<p>True, not a lot of college programs target embedded systems so if one is truly interested, he/she would need to put together their own program tailored toward embedded engineering. It may not get you to a point where you can go out and design embedded systems, but it&#8217;ll provide you with the fundamentals where you can pick up the rest such as program management (project management is mostly different implementation of the theoretical statistic models) easier.</p>
<p>I agree that college do not provide the graduate with the skills that they can immediately use when they get out in the job, but I don&#8217;t think that college should focus solely on those skills. Just like an Electrical engineer is not expected to be able to fix TVs when they get their degree, but they should be able to explain the major technological theories in the design of the TV.</p>
<p>Teaching theories and getting the students to understand it where they can apply it is where college should put their focus on. The actual skills needed on the job should be learned on the job, and in self-learning outside of school.</p>
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		<title>By: M. @ LI</title>
		<link>http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/2012/01/11/is-college-necessary-for-embedded-developers/#comment-12269</link>
		<dc:creator>M. @ LI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.embeddedinsights.com/channels/?p=678#comment-12269</guid>
		<description>Re: Has the college curriculum since adjusted to address the needs of today’s embedded developers? 
Intel launched the Intel Embedded Curriculum in January 2010 and is planning a 3rd year of support for universities. Currently there are ~ 60 Universities participating World Wide. About the the Intel® Embedded University Program (IEUP):
•Enables technology leaders of tomorrow with an understanding of the new generation of embedded systems
•Provides a solid academic foundation for designing and developing new and future technologies
•Offers research, equipment, and curriculum development grants to universities around the world, and holds an annual education summit with researchers and Intel engineers.
To learn more, visit: http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/embedded/designcenter/training/university-program 

Additionally:
The Intel Cornell Cup USA, founded by Intel &amp; Cornell Systems Engineering, is a college-level embedded design competition created to empower student teams to become the inventors of the newest innovative applications of embedded technology. Students will also be given the opportunity to enhance their resumes and demonstrate their professional design skills, highly sought by today’s companies, as they transform their ideas into a well-planned, robust reality. To learn more:
http://www.systemseng.cornell.edu/intel/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Has the college curriculum since adjusted to address the needs of today’s embedded developers?<br />
Intel launched the Intel Embedded Curriculum in January 2010 and is planning a 3rd year of support for universities. Currently there are ~ 60 Universities participating World Wide. About the the Intel® Embedded University Program (IEUP):<br />
•Enables technology leaders of tomorrow with an understanding of the new generation of embedded systems<br />
•Provides a solid academic foundation for designing and developing new and future technologies<br />
•Offers research, equipment, and curriculum development grants to universities around the world, and holds an annual education summit with researchers and Intel engineers.<br />
To learn more, visit: <a href="http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/embedded/designcenter/training/university-program" rel="nofollow">http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/embedded/designcenter/training/university-program</a> </p>
<p>Additionally:<br />
The Intel Cornell Cup USA, founded by Intel &amp; Cornell Systems Engineering, is a college-level embedded design competition created to empower student teams to become the inventors of the newest innovative applications of embedded technology. Students will also be given the opportunity to enhance their resumes and demonstrate their professional design skills, highly sought by today’s companies, as they transform their ideas into a well-planned, robust reality. To learn more:<br />
<a href="http://www.systemseng.cornell.edu/intel/" rel="nofollow">http://www.systemseng.cornell.edu/intel/</a></p>
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